LEDE is death hole for consumer

Few weeks ago, I finally gave up on Linksys to provide a decent firmware and deal with randomly router getting into non-responsive state, I decided to go with OpenWRT for Linksys WRT1900AC v1 (as I remembered my router was advertised as OpenWRT capable).

After 2 hour research found out that OpenWRT is dead (https://wiki.openwrt.org/toh/linksys/wrt_ac_series), but hail to Cesar LEDE is there to take over.

Another half a day of research reading how to flash properly, how to not to screw up and so on, I am finally ready to make the move. Yay! LEDE is up and running.

Now off to simple steps like opening ports, defining static IP's, adding 'guest network' and again reading confusing documents from around the net on how to properly do it. Simple stuff. Especially when it's advertised "LEDE supports guest network!". It kind of supports, if you call that. If you are tech savvy and spend hours in research figuring out the Wireless overview, the interface, firewall, routing and so on... I was able to. Phew.

So far so good. Made backups on the way to ensure I have something to get back to if I screw up.

Later spent more time figuring out how to enable OpenVPN again, another advertised feature (yeah yeah, shoot me for not running linux box inside my house and wanting convenience to get onto my own network. Linksys firmware had it and it worked, so it should not be an issue, right?). Well, this does not appear straight forward, LUCI does not appear to work (or at least I was not able to figure out yet) and bunch of docs from years ago suggest CLI. Oh well, I will get back to this some time later as VPN is not urgent. (I have other means to get into my network.)

While at it, configured ddns and qos and few other packages that I was (now I know stupid enough) to not write the names down.

Today, identified the new LEDE version had been released. I know, I checked the 'how to upgrade' docs, but what I scratched my head for was "Why LEDE is not telling me there is an update available?". After few hours or research, I still don't have an idea, but hell with it, I guess this is not important to enduser, just go to website and click around and you will/maybe be able to find an update. Usability 0.

Made backups, read how to upgrade. Upgraded. All good!

Wait, the packages are not upgraded? They don't show up in LUCI as there is upgrade available and there is no way to upgrade? Oh well, let's go back to CLI. Phew! Updated, scripted, all done.

Back to GUI. Wait! Where are my custom packages that I had downloaded? Openvpn, qos, ddns and few that I don't remember now all gone! WTF!?

Reinstalling packages creates a duplicate package e.g. for ddns because there is a file /etc/config/ddns it just slapped the package /etc/config/ddns-opkg ??? What the hell do I need to do with the wrong config?

I am sure someone will let me know that I did not not read somewhere or I did not understand something and this is how it works, however I do not see LEDE project ready.

Forgive me for saying, but I believe the LEDE will go to internet graveyard shortly...

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There defiantly needs to be some user friendliness improvements. After a few hours I found out that you can't get past 20 mb/s without WMM turned on. I still don't know if there is other software I need to install.

@2by444 You joined 2 hours ago, didn’t post any questions about any of the problems you ran into and how to fix them. Yet you condemn this project to the ground.

If you want to have the latest security patches, run all kinds of additional software on your consumer grade router, the possibilities are “endless”. If you want all that and easy upgrade of the firmware, have a look at the build environment. You can add “anything” including all your specific configurations for specifically your router and have an easy way to update.

If @Ryu945 you don’t even know what additional software you need, why you updated to LEDE in the first place?

As for easy to find updates: it’s the BIG download button on the front page of the project!

If you don’t like the OEM firmware, but want a simpler OOTB experience, look at the DD-WRT project. Once comfortable with that and ready for your next step, come back. LEDE will still be here!!

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You had missed the point and instead you take it personally.

Registration was solely for the purpose to report the feedback.

What did you want me to register to forum for? To ask why there are no - upgrade (system not package) notifications, why packages get wiped at upgrade, why duplicate config files are created on reinstall, why configuring Guest network can't be made easier and the list goes on.

I have some experience with firewalls, but you ask me to learn everything from scratch just for 'how lede works" and there are way too many gotchas in the process. How do you even expect anyone to upgrade to latest firmware if it's such a disaster every time? I haven't checked for KRAK yet, if the fix is in latest firmware, but if not for KRAK, something else will come up soon and the firmware and package will have to be updated.

Do you really think LEDE is for CORP on consumer router hardware?

Instead of berating me and other folks for feedback, better guide on how to solve these problems. However, for you easier to "use ddwrt, you stupid noob".

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I think there is a basic misunderstanding here, and yes, I feel this should be communicated more clearly, even on the website.

LEDE is not consumer software.

It runs on consumer hardware, it runs well out of the box for basic tasks with minimal configuration, and the LuCI web interface can provide a somewhat convenient interface to do that.

Beyond that, however, it is software for enthusiasts, hobbyists, and a platform for development. That includes the development of consumer firmware with consumer-friendly UX, and several manufacturers are relying on OpenWrt/LEDE as the underpinning of their firmware.

You are absolutely required to bring some technical acumen to the table if you want to install and use LEDE beyond the most basic functions. I don't agree that you have to learn "everything from scratch", LEDE works to quite an extent like other Linux distributions. If you're familiar with Linux, you are familiar with LEDE. And let's be honest, it's not that much of a stretch to familiarize yourself with the package and configuration system. If you're not willing or able to do that, for whatever reason, LEDE might not be for you.

Yelling at problems does not solve them. LEDE is a community effort. What can you do to improve LEDE?

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You really should work on basic manners and expectations, at least in the unlikely event that you'd be looking for a constructive conversation or -beware- support.

Lacking that, the only retort would be - see you at the cash out register for your refund and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

/kthxbye

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I won't be able to help. That's not why I downloaded the software. I am quite familiar with Linux, but I am not ready to contribute to every project I downloaded. Will I figure out and have I configured many areas, yes, but I showed my frustrations in the process and documented in the post.

While you say LEDE is for enthusiasts, I agree, but don't make enthusiasts to go and find solutions on their own. Simple tasks like check for upgrades are so easy, only need to do on both the server and end software side.

Enthusiasts have lives too (some of them). I consider myself enthusiast and have wide variety of projects, but when in 2017 you can't even find a link in GUI to point to a download page and instead make user go to website and click on "big button", common!

I could not recommend LEDE to any consumer without Linux knowledge and any projects geared/limited to a small group of end users will be lost. Some will swear by it, some move on to another.

My initial post was not for help, but to give feedback. Go Google for simple tasks like "LEDE openvpn", guides are from years ago and nobody mentions LUCI setup as it does not work, yet packages are there and available.

The egos are broken, take the feedback and move on.

Again, this is not personal, this is a feedback.

What of my manners offended you?

I find your post offensive, as you get upset at the feedback and shove "go out to cash out". Let me guess, you've posted couple comments and been around for a while, therefore you feel entitled to "set him straight" if feedback is negative on user experience?

Software may be one of the strengths of LEDE, usability is not.

There is a reason why engineers are not allowed to do design and in some cases "not allowed to talk to humans" :wink:

P.S. My daily job is to work with software and hardware engineers.

Just for future reference there's really not much need to go wandering around the innertubes in most cases, the LEDE docs are pretty well stocked at this point and if you can't find what you need there, you can most likely find it over in the OpenWrt docs.

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I am asking if there is additional software I should install but don't know to install. From what I know LEDE is stripped down to a basic router. What I want to know is if there is any software feature that really should be added that I don't know about. For example, is the basic QOS terrible and I need to install another one? Is there some software that would improve wifi performance that was seen as to advance to be in base LEDE? Is there a particular VPN package recommended over the others. I don't know if those small things exist which is why I ask.

Allow me to say that your feedback is welcome, just the style you choose for your feedback is not. You seem to almost exclusively deal in negative extremes, that is neither helpful nor appropriate.

Of course it is easy. It is also unwanted. It's a conscious decision not to have update checks (or usage statistics, or indeed anything that connects to the server on its own). This, by the way, is how many other Linux distributions handle it, too.

As well you shouldn't. Again, LEDE is not targeted at inexperienced consumers.

Yes, every once in a while someone comes along, has a bad experience, and goes on to predict the impeding doom of the project. You are aware that OpenWrt has been around for 13 years now? LEDE/OpenWrt might never be a household name, but it certainly has a strong and vital user base, not to mention the backing of the industry.

So in your professional experience,extremely negative and unconstructive feedback is the best way to encourage improvements?

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Maybe in a few years lede could look like this?
http://balancedemo.peplink.com/cgi-bin/MANGA/index.cgi
It's a demo for a peplink router GUI.
User friendly, even has some advanced features, but it lacks some musts like dnscrypt.
If you take the time to learn and read, lede is and will be superior to any other router firmware.

I never mentioned that LEDE software is bad, the user experience and the feedback loop back to the users where it really needs to brush up.

Is LEDE goal to be a niche player where only 'enthusiasts and alike' are using the product or make it powerful and easy enough to use for everyone? I don't think so.

I will take your word for OpenWRT being around for 13 years, however LEDE just got forked, so it makes it fresh project.

@ledelede I really thought I had read the upgrade documentation multiple times https://lede-project.org/docs/guide-quick-start/sysupgrade.luci "Install additional packages" this should be a warning that all packages installed will be gone. That page lacks few more links or commands to the upgrade process:

  1. Identify user-installed packages
  2. Allow to backup the user-installed packages/names

I am still unsure on what is the foolproof way to upgrade and retain all settings. On a next upgrade, will I remember exactly what packages were installed and their configs are backed up?

And the last thing - in LUCI GUI under "Flash new firmware image"

Upload a sysupgrade-compatible image here to replace the running firmware. Check "Keep settings" to retain the current configuration (requires a compatible firmware image).
Keep settings: [x]

However in Guide:

"Uncheck/clear the “Keep settings” checkbox! (more info regarding the "Keep settings" checkbox and it's rare use cases)."

Wouldn't it make more sense to have it [o] (unchecked) by default if it is so strongly not recommend? There is a disconnect between the GUI and documentation.

I was like you i even did not know how to install it on my router, not to mention it's configuration. But i was familiar with linux. Then i registered on OpenWRT forum and they told me how to install OpenWRT 12.09 BB on my tp link 740n. I installed it and started reading documentation. Then it bricked and i even managed to debrick it with serial port soldering :slight_smile:
Then i bought Netgear WNDR3700v4 and it had "problem" It could not use it's 128 MB ROM. I registered here and again i asked about it. They helped me here and i compiled my own system with patch. Then i read that i could include many programs and make my own changes in conf files. So i did that too. Everything is documented. You just have to read and understand linux :slight_smile:
Now i use Dnscrypt-proxy, Openvpn, Force DNS to clients, VLANs, Guest WIFI and so on. All this stuff because i am familiar to linux and i read documnetation. So instead of talking here that things you talked about in your first ever post here, you should have searched things and try to get them working, if you could not you should have asked. Now even i can help with some sort of things. I would if i saw any question to which i had answer. This comunity rocks! Also system is very GOOD, works like churm.

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@ledelede I had a look at the demo site. I’m not sure if the original poster would find it much more user friendly. To me, it looks like a new skin. What makes this more user friendly to you? Maybe we could design a new theme/skin. One problem with eye candy especially on limited resources devices like routers is that it take a lot of memory “just” for the visuals.

@2by444 Like others already said, it’s the tone of your feedback. Explain constructively what you would like to see differently and maybe you have a point and we could implement some changes. As for proper documentation. I most agree that a lot of stuff is still outdated OpenWRT how-to’s. People are working on this to slowly improve/adapt the material available to the 2017 standards. If you have any positive input here, like re-write some stuff that you don’t like, that would be highly appreciated.

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To repeat what others have already mentioned, all of these things are nice to have but seem outside of lede's scope. But there are lede/openwrt derived products/distributions like the turris omnia/turrisOS that pretty much aim to deliver what you ask for (turrisOS's track record is not perfect, but IMHO rather good and they do promise automatic updates and try to keep installed packages over updates as well, they also offer easy openvpn and wifi guest network configuration from their GUI; they salso offer access to the underlaying openwrt's* luci GUI). So maybe you would be happier with a turris omnia, which, I believe, can still be purchased.

*) They aim to move their internals from modified openwrt base to modified lede base, but no ETA yet.

Thats why openwrt/lede is running on millions of devices...

Sure its not perfect. I would really like myself some kind of full autoupdate. But take your time to learn this new platform and rethink about your statement.

Generaly with Linux, if you want to see more than ubuntu, it will cost you a lot of time. For that you get limitless flexibility. If you cant take it, the only alternativ is to spend hundreds on real consumer hardware/software and in my experience still get a lot of trouble...

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Hey there.

I guess I'm going to regret that statement sooner or later. But I agree with lots of you guys in several things posted here in this post. But the one I agree most with is 2by444 and his initial post.

The issues he addresses is perfectly valid. There's no denying. You simply can't update LEDE on your router like you can update your android, just by clicking the "oh yes, please"-Icon. I'm not saying this is a must have feature. I'm just saying it's not there at the moment.

I don't find his post as offensive as others do. Maybe that's because I'm a German, and they say of us we're in a way blunt and direct that other cultures find the most offensive. So to me, it's just "triggering" at a certain level that makes others react on, not directly insulting.

There are lots of people here asking for very basic help. I don't think they are dumb or lazy. I'm guessing someone in their peer group told them something like: "Hey! I'm such a cool tech guy. My router is so powerfull. And yours can be too, just install linux on it. LEDE is the flavor of choice.". And off they go, search the web for LEDE and stumble right across everything we're seeing here every day.

The thing is:
We either accept that. Accept the fact that there are a certain number of people using LEDE that LEDE isn't directly made for. And we adjust both, LEDE, the way of communication and the way we think LEDE is supposed to be used. In order to not confront those people but include them.
Or we do confront them. Send them away. Tell them to do some basic learning and get used to at least some basic CLI stuff.

I don't opt for one of those. Bing a tech guy and software developer myself, I very offen tend to do the second. I'm just saying: Both are possible. But it should be perfectly clear which one it is.

Regards,
Stephan.

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I feel the same way (maybe because I'm German too): Less offensive than others experienced it. And it's a valid criticism too.

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Strong words tend to provoke strong responses. The way the initial post was written did not exactly made it sound as if the OP had any real interest in discussing the technical details.

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