LEDE is death hole for consumer

I think that kind of feature, in a space constrained device like most consumer devices are, would wreck havoc. The way it works as of today we only update the strictly needed packages, system-wide upgrade is disencouraged for reasons (duplicate packages, unexpected behavior and so on).

Mission critical devices are not intended to be updated regularly like a full-fledged distro is. Only in case of a security risk one should put stability in second plane. The "click here for a full system upgrade without an apocalypse" is never going to happen.

OpenWRT/LEDE is very welcoming in the sense of doing whatever you want, you reap what you sow.

My 2 cents.

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I never mentioned that LEDE software is bad, the user experience and the feedback loop back to the users where it really needs to brush up.

Is LEDE goal to be a niche player where only 'enthusiasts and alike' are using the product or make it powerful and easy enough to use for everyone? I don't think so.

wide use is nice, but not at the cost of loosing features.

I will take your word for OpenWRT being around for 13 years, however LEDE just got forked, so it makes it fresh project.

only somewhat, LEDEand OpenWRT are merging again, there is always room for
improvement in any project, but this isn't a fresh start,

@ledelede I really thought I had read the upgrade documentation multiple times https://lede-project.org/docs/guide-quick-start/sysupgrade.luci "Install additional packages" this should be a warning that all packages installed will be gone. That page lacks few more links or commands to the upgrade process:

  1. Identify user-installed packages
  2. Allow to backup the user-installed packages/names

This would be good to add. Unfortunantly, over time, package names do sometimes
change (or one package is replaced by another to provide similar functionality),
so it's not foolproof.

But what OS upgrade is foolproof?

David Lang

Stephan,
Everbody involved with LEDE does accept that there are people for who LEDE is
not directly usable for. We periodically get people showing up that assume that
since it's not suitable for Grandma to install by herself, that the project is
going to die any day now.

What they don't realize is that the majority of consumer gear is running OpenWRT
or DD-WRT under the covers, just without any updates provided, and with a GUI
that throws away 99% of the capabilities of the parent projects in order to make
it 'simple enough for consumers'

The project isn't aimed at being something that is suitable for all consumers,
it's aimed at building something for experts, and that can be stripped down and
customized to be made suitable for many use cases that consumers will see.

David Lang

LEDE is like a Ferrari, not everyone can handle it.

Of course I have no Ferrari, but I have LEDE. :grinning::grinning::grinning:

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I think the OP is being over dramatic but does have a good point about sysupgrade and losing packages which isn't made clear on the web UI and isn't really something you would expect from an upgrade.

It's true that the openwrt wiki does have obsolete articles, but this is a community project after all.

Saying all that, this is a free product and is being designed to work on hundreds of devices, it's never going to be smooth sailing unless you are willing to do research and debug or fix problems yourself.

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It is funny and sad how the last sentence caused so much grief to some and ignored everything else.

If I were to rewrite, maybe I would have excluded the last sentence and worded few things differently, but the overall message would still be the same.

I understand there are physical limitations due to wide array of hardware and 'auto-upgrade' is not something that is recommended. I did not request for auto-upgrade. I only asked in GUI:

  1. to document better in GUI (show hyperlink to documentation)
  2. include a hyperlink to the firmware download page
  3. check for an updated firmware and display a simple icon :warning: there is newer update available.
  4. Show 'custom' installed packages. Distinguish between firmware included vs post upgrade/install packages. I know there are many options available, like building custom image, but building custom image would mark the packages as part of the deployment.
  5. Show custom packages out of date
  6. If upgrade is available one package at the time in GUI, that would be great. If not. At least document in GUI what needs to be done.

The simple things go a long way.

Thanks to everyone!

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May I add that there are some people like myself that like to use software without being forced in a certain direction. It seems that nowadays people stop to think for themselfs and if software does not take the user by their hands it's considered bad software or not user friendly.

I like the fact that I'm not greeted with a exclamation mark everytime I open the GUI just because I'm 1 version behind. Maybe I have a valid reason to do so. I especially chose LEDE because it lets the user free in his/her choses. Instead of being forced in a certain direction because the manufacturer thinks it's for the best (yeah p2p feature im talking to you).

But I do agree that some things may be added to the documentation but I still think the user should be capable of finding stuff on their own. Learn from your mistakes is the best way to learn in my opinion.

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cfu = 0 (disabled)

There are always valid reasons to not be on bleeding edge, but being not-informed of updates available is another. LEDE already has 'minor/maintenance' and 'major' releases. (Maybe an introduction of an LTS?). You may not be interested in minor, but major may need to be evaluated. Then again, take the Equifax as an example (I know they lacked and ignored security basics, non patched environment was the tip of an iceberg), but they ignored long outstanding fixes and got hacked.

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I agree. TBH, I was not aware there were package updates until it was noted in the forums that you can run 'opkg update' and 'opkg show-updatable' on 17.01.3 to see the packages necessary to upgrade from the Krack vulnerability.

NOTE: On some devices, there is not enough free flash/RAM to upgrade all packages at once.

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'LEDE is not consumer software'

It had to be said. Thank you.

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It would be nice if there was a software package made designed to turn LEDE into a "consumer router". There are advantages that LEDE has that consumer routers do not. I am sure there would be people that appreciate being able to get that without having the disadvantages of lack of user friendliness. To give you an example of what I have in mind, Pfsense is a good example. It has VPN software, update checking and many other configuration options built in. There are things that Pfsense can't be used for and that is where LEDE with a consumer software package would be useful. LEDE is designed to be package modifierable anyway so why not make this "consume router" package.

I usually considered that to be running it in its default config, and not trying to customize it...like a non-consumer router.

When I flash a new device with LEDE, it always acted like a normal 'consumer' router (IMO):

  • 1 WAN port
  • 4 LAN ports
  • Per the instructions - WiFi off by default for security (first lesson with LuCI or UCI)
  • Default login as 192.168.1.1
  • Create your own password on the Admin Page

What would you describe or hope see as a set-of-features from "a 'consumer router'"?

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The ā€œSet-of-featuresā€ is exactly what LEDE is not. Besides since it supported a wide range of devices with each their limitations, itā€™s not possible to define this ā€œsetā€. Some have USB, others have (too) limited flash/ram. Besides every user (or use case) has its own feature-set. Less features means less security risks. So for the specific use case, only install the packages required for that case. Even if a router has USB, some users donā€™t want/need to use external storage. So why even include USB support (for those users). Others want something extra like USB over IP; they need additional package.

Something more common like VPN. Do you want OpenVPN or IPSec (because your iOS devices support it OOTB). Or you want SoftEther.

Then some donā€™t even want the GUI. Again more resources left or they feel itā€™s more secure (less people know even how to access the device).

Bottom line: if you want consumer software stick to the OEM firmware. It should run stable with all the features they advertise for your device. It will not void the warranty and if it doesnā€™t work as the box said it would, they should have their own customer service points.

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I guess by consumer router I mean

  1. Update checking. Both to check for updates and apply new updates.
  2. USB support (printers and harddrives working by default)
  3. VPN Support (all vpns which includes Open)
  4. Basic features like bridging in easy to use interface. They way Lede does it is to complicated for a "Consumer Router". This includes WAN to LAN bridging and Wifi to LAN Bridging
  5. Https GUI access
  6. Everything Above can be done in GUI.

I'll probably think of more later. I know some don't think making such a setup like this holds value but I have seen its value.

Turris Omnia was already mentioned. They use btrfs snapshots. That is interesting. Google uses chromium os on its routers too. Not related to lede, but at least open and linux based. So something to look into as a model for updates. Is anyone trying to get lede to run on the google wifi router (gale) ? This was the only thing I found https://github.com/marcosscriven/galeforce .

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Not everyone is running OpenVPN on their routers. Some actually have a dedicated machine because they value speed. So I don't think OpenVPN should be part of the "Consumer Package". But I like the way of a Consumer Package that users can install. But then again a manufacturer is targeting a specific device and design it's features accordingly. LEDE is targeting multiple devices at once, each with their hardware limitations, I think this would make it difficult to create a all-in-one consumer package.

In also curious what is difficult about bridging interfaces in LEDE? Selecting 2 checkboxes and pressing save&apply doesn't seem that difficult?

I found this in my build of latest lede

c4dfe9d6b4e5

So i think there is a way to upgrade lede from web UI

I see various things on that list that would cause the developers nightmares to implement on multiple boards:

  • Incompatibility with some routers (USB)
  • Space/resource issues (VPNs, updating...e.g. one of my devices has less than 64kb after flashing, doing a "full update" on that device would cause issues)
  • Briding is quite simple actually, it's much more difficult on Linux command lines to do it properly (the process of assigning bridges, VLANs, etc. is much like in Cisco)
  • Some countries, a HTTPS login might not be permissible (but this can be easily enabled using the instructions)
  • Some of the things above, I've never seen in a consumer router's GUI

I've upgraded LEDE from GUI since Kamikaze...are you saying a "Backup/Flash Firmware" or "Sysupgrade" menu hasn't appeared on your device until 17.01.4?

I agree that it isn't "consumer-friendly"...just like entering Linux for the first time...it takes getting used to.

I'm used to devices like Cisco, Juniper, etc. having these features (and even then, you wouldn't normally do something like make a USB-HDD-based file server). So, when I read concerns of thoser less savyy in LEDE, I take pause...and I'm thankful we all have a router distro to use.

My $0.02

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No i use ā€œBackup/Flash Firmwareā€ or ā€œSysupgradeā€ all the time. I was talking about different. About program which notifies you that newer firmware is available and let's you install it from the GUI.
Please see my screenshot above.

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Interesting, had no idea that was available, have you had a chance to try it yet?

edit - just installed and tried it out, got the notification for new update available, snapshot to snapshot, requested image and got this even though I'm on a well supported wrt1200-

unknown device, please check model and board params