Who wants to use LEDE, and is still not using it? (and why)

[quote="metai, post:11, topic:509"]
However, "build your own image" cannot possibly be an end-all argument to every question about release cycles, and especially not about release builds. The average user--and I really mean average and not uninitiated--simply cannot be asked to build his/her own image. If that were the case, LEDE would be doomed for a broad audience, however technically inclined. The main audience will want, and need, pre-built images and processes based on pre-built images.[/quote]
I wasn't arguing. I pointed that out because you were talking about re-installing packages/reconfiguring after upgrading. That's why I started rolling my own - that, and security updates on stable branches.

Thing is, I will switch to the stable branch when LEDE releases one, but I will keep running my own builds :slight_smile: .

I am not confrontational here, sorry if it came across that way. I just firmly believe that the cumbersome process of upgrading a system that has been customized beyond the defaults, be it release or snapshot versions, be it preconfigured with uci-defaults or not, is one of the weak points in the whole LEDE/OpenWrt system.

I have high hopes that at some point in the future the upgrade process will be streamlined, with some method of reinstalling packages and retaining (maybe even versioned) config files. Of course there are ways you can do that yourself right now, but again, they are cumbersome. Certainly not suitable for the uninitiated, and even bothersome to "advanced users" like I consider myself.

It is in fact one of the main issues I keep noodling in my head, planning to do a custom (and publicly offered) build for the My Book Live I love so much. I mean, I cannot possibly expect someone to upgrade to a later build and lose customized network connectivity, mount points and network shares unless you know exactly what you're doing and how to prepare everything. It's not a dealbreaker, of course it isn't, but it's something that could end up discouraging users from taking part.

Also keep in mind that until there is an official stable release, you mostly get a self selected audience, which is at least comfortable with using snapshots - starting from there, just building it from source isn't a far stretch (especially considering that luci isn't preinstalled in snapshots).

From reactions that i also see in other forum posts, I think having a first release will be the real start for most end users. Having enough stabillity for day to day use and no surprises.

So i hope there will be a first release not to long from now. I'm more and more convinced that a first release is the main thing that the end users are waiting for. Allthough i hope to get much more feedback on this topic. Just to get an idea who is waiting for the startshot . :slight_smile:

For basic routing LEDE seems to work just fine right now. (on my GLi AR150)
I'm in no way an advanced user, and i have no dev skills, i hope to use LEDE for several small projects. So i consider myself to be a creative enduser. I rely heavily on a stable build and packages that work more or less out of the box. And I will use LEDE more as a micro server, not so much as a router, or well... A hotspot that serves stands alone info pages is also a router.

The My Book project seems very interesting to me. How hard will it be to have that working as a secure little webserver?

I'm not using LEDE because I'm waiting for a stable release.

I don't want to have any hangups or issues. I just want to install and have a trouble-free experience. I don't have time currently to be tinkering and experimenting.

Yes, I think there are a lot of people in your situation. You want the best, but you're not able/willing to spend the time farbling around with experimental software.

The good news is that we are finalizing the "release machinery" (Draft of Release Plan published) that we'll use to generate our long-term stable releases, so we're well on the way to getting there.

This is why it is great to have small boxes like the AR150.

I'm no developer, i really consider myself to be an mixed CLI/GUI end user, So i also wait for that first release before i do more serious things with it. I think I will never be a developer.

I also think that there is a void between the end users and the developers. If i had to give it a name i would call it the configuration void.

Once there is a stable release then the end users can do stuff with configurations. It would be nice to have something going in that section. Where the focus is a bit more on the end user and a bit less on the developer stuff. Many endusers have great ideas but don't have dev skills.

I'm curious what will happen once that gap starts to close.
Ubuntu became the bridge in that gap for Debian somehow.

Not sure what i'm saying now, just an observation, there is probably more to it. Evolution will bridge all gaps eventually. Should we help evolution? Can we? What has to be done? And who can/will do it?

What can end users with no dev skills do to bridge that gap. What skills do they have? how do we know?
Im sure there are bloggers, vloggers, hackers, tinkerers, who can make tutorials etc. As an addition to the wiki. We have this ecosystem of users, and how can we mix the users into this soup of the evolution?

Without expecting them to become developers.

Is there a platform within the community for these people? Or even outside of the community that still can be a benefit for the community? What do we have what do we need, what lies inbetween that has overlap? and hoe can we close those little gaps. So that the DEV's have their freedom to think on the outer side of the inside of the box. And that the end users can do their thing on the inner outside of the box and gain some more insight of the inner workings of the box.

I more and more like the penguin in the box logo. The LID is off the box, everyone can look inside. but for an end user it is not always easy to make sense of what's cooking on the inside.

The skillset of the enduser can be very different, builders, housewives, teenagers, you name it they ALL use routers for MANY hours each day. And they simply cant become devs, maybe some can, but this world still needs farmers cooks painters etc. So i don't think the devs can expect from the endusers to get involved, some will some won't. As long as we are inviting enough and never ever push them away then some may become interested and discover the world on the inside of the box.

So It would be for instance an idea to make a forum section for the void. Don't narrow it down to anything but make a pond, feed the curiosity, and lead slowly teach people little details on the end user level. Think GUI users, who have absolutely no networking experience. And then 'hope' that they start to help to document the GUI, and make videos, write cool blogs how to NOT use a router. The more they write about LEDE the more LEDE awareness in general and the less that remains unknown.

It all benefits.

But there has to be a platform for that part of the community to live on and evolve into system.

Yup. You ARE that evolution. People like you (and me) feel the urge to bridge that gap between the understanding of what's possible, and making it so a) that "ordinary" people can do it, and b) how they can do it.

We're the people who write the HOWTO documents that describe feature/package, tell why it's useful, then describe how to make it work.

Long term, our routers will know how to do these most common (most useful) functions themselves. Already, there's a router (IQrouter) that adds auto-setup and auto-configuration for SQM code onto a base OpenWrt to minimize bufferbloat/latency/lag. The Homenet project is working hard to create auto-configuration for an entire multi-router setup with all the trimmings so that you can just unbox a router, put it in your spare room, and it'll configure itself to your existing network.

But for now, we are the ones who figure out how to do the manual configuration of these amazing facilities, prove them out in all kinds of network environments, and make the world a little better. I'm glad you're on the team.

I'm not using LEDE because in the beginning there were a lot of issues with ath9 which caused the connection to drop, this has been resolved. But with the latest builds I experience some DNS issues that Dnsmasq is not always resolving fine which causes time outs. In the logfiles I cannot find any lead on this. So for now I'm using Chaos Calmer with the latest updates until LEDE is released as stable.

@bladeoner Has this been reported as a bug? I assume you cannot reproduce it anymore since you'd need LEDE installed again, but it certainly would help if the devs aren't aware of it yet...

Installed the recent new build for the WR1043ND v4, but found that it had dropped my WAN speeds (Speedtesting) from 95 Mbps on the stock firmware, to 30-40 Mbps for no reason whatsoever. Although it improved Wi-Fi speeds by a lot in comparison to the TP-Link stock firmware, it's a bit of a shame to lose all the LAN speed, so waiting on it to become more stable.

I think you'll get more feedback if you ask this question in the "Using and Installing LEDE" category. (https://forum.openwrt.org/c/general)

It would also help to describe the exact build you used, and other tests you may have performed. Thanks.

@richb-hanover,

I really like those projects though they should be more integrated into the community.
The thing is this. their community is not really connected to openwrt / Lede. Just like GLi-net has it's own forum and thats all fine, though there is this gap between the endusers and the developers.

Personally i would prefer to share the configurations here in the community. A wild idea that then pops up:
Have some kind of sub-forum that can be synchronised That those projects can host on their site, and discussions that are also available here.
This can then also provide extra moderators? Ok, can of worms is now open :slight_smile: But maybe there is a better idea that can draw projects more into the community? (and promote those projects as a result)

I had no clue about IQrouter and Homenet (allthough homenet does ring a bell)

Maybe we should also make a ToP? Table of projects. Where projects can make a description page. And that endusers can search.... If a user wants a router that with VPN and NAS on a 71xx. check 3 boxes and all projects pop up in a list. This could actually be the bridge that i had in mind.

And it also could benefit the hardware manufacturers. But it will also draw in more (potential) end users with more question.

I am not using LEDE because i have not figured out how to build it for my boards yet.

I have been using openwrt for about 2 years now. My first use was with the Arduino yun. I have since flashed both of my dlink routers with openwrt.

I like the idea of using LEDE for micro controller boards that run linux such as the Yun, Vocore, and Mediatek 7688. All of these boards ship with openwrt. But I am currently trying to build LEDE for my mediatek smart7688 board.

I like the idea of LEDE and have been hopeful that this project will succeed. I would love to see a version of LEDE that is IoT focused. If LEDE offered real improvements over openwrt for IoT-centric boards, then the manufacturers would switch to using sources from LEDE when building their custom firmwares.

my $0.02

1 Like

@Borromini I didn't report it as a bug yet because I was trying to figure out what it can be. I'm also experimenting with porting Dnsmasq from LEDE (version 2.76) to Openwrt Chaos Calmer (uses 2.73) I experienced the same but it is working. The only problem that I have is this is my production router and I cannot experiment too much, I don't have a spare one.

@charcoal Thanks for the note. I agree that projects like IQrouter and Homenet can be welcomed to participate, but I'm not sure we need to work too hard to pull them in, or to "regulate" how they present themselves. For example:

  • IQrouter is still based on OpenWrt. They're looking hard at LEDE, and waiting forit to become a stable platform, at which point, they plan to switch over. I would welcome them to start a topic in the Community Builds, Packages, Projects category.

  • Homenet is good on development, but seems less concerned about deployment. They, too, could find a good home talking about their project in the Community Builds section.

But being aware of our "power" (or lack thereof, to tell the truth), I think the best path is to welcome all who care to add information to the LEDE site/forum/project, and let those groups drive the amount of their participation.

@tippy2k

What kind of improvements do you have in mind?
Could you name a few small and simple improvements?
Also an example of IoT utopia for instance?
And something in between for the near future whishes?
And the big question who should build them?

For sensors there is i2c
Serial communications with arduino can be done .

I assume the problem is that no two routers use the same GPIO's, nor breakout them all them on a easy reachable pin. Yun, DominoPi and a few others have this option and even they have their differences.

maybe a DEV could tell us what could be done with software and what actually is the most practical approach? Building it will most likely need someone with creative ideas.

Should the LEDE forum have a specific IoT corner? Or another kind of 'Bric-a-box' tinker section?

I hope to see your IoT creations one day! So please share and spark some ideas.

There should be no pressure, but only an option for people to list them in a table, just like we do with the routers. So that there is a list of devices that can run LEDE and a list of projects that are based on LEDE

Think 'connecting people' LEDE is the interface between the Hardware and the end user.
So if LEDE project can bring the hardware, the enduser , external projects, and the developers closer together that would be the glue. We also do not regulate how we present the routers, we just list the features in a way that users can make a better educated choice to what router options are available for them.

Evethough i hope that this will not destract or overtax the devs. Endusers arn't always aware of the workload. I have the feeling that the Devs are already busy enough with their own ideas and are not all that interested in ideas of people who don't have coding skills. Understandable. But what can we do to act as a filter? Endusers also like to share their ideas.

Do we need more people with specific teaching skills? (and with a lot of patience)

I also have Piratebox Librarybox Freifunk Gargoyle and many other projects in mind. Search engines like Google arn't all that helpful when someone seaches for "all LEDE based project" (Or OpenWRT for that matter since there are no LEDE based options available yet)

I try to figure out what could work but i'm also aware that any of my ideas could be an obstacle. I see it as growing pains, cell devision... LEDE is a cell devision of OpenWRT, It gives the room to expand the shared intelligence. Same DNA, and it brings the two in a natural balance again. A bit of competition, and room for opposite ideas and approaches.

Listing the LEDE based projects should promote those projects. Just by making then easy to discover and searchable for their main features.

@charcoal

What kind of improvements do you have in mind?
Could you name a few small and simple improvements?

  • Changes to the UI for things like:
  • GPIO,PWM,ADC,I2C dashboards and controls
  • Cloud servers, MQTT
  • IFTTT dashboard and editor
  • Pre-defined networking scenarios and scripts for failovers
    e.g.: try mesh first, if error start access point

Also an example of IoT utopia for instance?

  • If there is an on-off switch somewhere they can press, 90% of projects are good to go.
  • A framework to help customize and deploy:
  • networks
  • web interfaces
  • APIs
  • Cloud services
  • OTA updates

And something in between for the near future whishes?

  • Full driver support for common IoT boards:
  • completion of opensouce mt76 driver for linkit7688 and Vocore2 boards

For sensors there is i2c
Serial communications with arduino can be done .
I assume the problem is that no two routers use the same GPIO's, nor breakout them all them on a easy reachable pin. Yun, DominoPi and a few others have this option and even they have their differences.
maybe a DEV could tell us what could be done with software and what actually is the most practical approach?

  • For boards without a MCU
  • LibMRAA has a lot of promise.
    It has configurations files to map the pins.
  • For boards with an MCU
  • Firmatta is good choice
    pin mappings match standard Arduino pins
  • Serial communication
  • Arduino Yun Bridge (my least favorite)
  • Custom. Anything goes.

Building it will most likely need someone with creative ideas.
Should the LEDE forum have a specific IoT corner? Or another kind of 'Bric-a-box' tinker section?

I think that you will find makers to be very creative. If you give them space to talk about their projects using LEDE or openwrt, they will be able to help this community understand their needs and desires better. Build it and see what happens.

And the big question who should build them?

I think that should be decided by something like a LEDE IoT working group. But it would be nice to think that community members could step up and board manufacturers could contribute as well.

I hope to see your IoT creations one day! So please share and spark some ideas.

Sure, here is a picture of my garden water system. It is built with an old Arduino Yun and a solenoid driven valve . It has an ethernet uplink and spreads additional wifi to my back yard. But most importantly it waters my plants every other day.

1 Like

Yeah, I did that, such a strange issue. I've tracked it down to WAN to LAN connections that are synced to 100 Mbps Full Duplex only. Wifi and 1 Gbps LAN work just fine. This behaviour is not observed on the stock firmware even with HW NAT off.

Really a dealbreaker for me as my desktop is connected via a cable that doesn't support 1 Gbps. My connection is 100 Mbps either way.