[Solved] 802.11ax worse than 802.11ac with mt76 driver?

Thank you so much for your help here.

I understand that's a good idea because mine are fairly close together. This setting change from '0' didn't seem to affect this issue for me.

All '8'. Are they supposed to be different? I don't actually know what the significance of this feature is actually.

Seems like I should switch to 'HT20'. Presumably that's also slightly higher range as well owing to greater power concentration over narrower bandwidth.

This seems like it could be major. What do 802.11k and 802.11v do I wonder? Do they help roaming?

Wait a minute... You're using 802.11v as well? That's not really an apples to apples comparison with my setup then.

https://www.extremenetworks.com/extreme-networks-blog/what-is-bss-color-in-802-11ax/

Perhaps someone else can weigh in on whether BSS color only applies to differentiating between transmissions on identical base stations using the same frequency.

Yes, they're quite significant. Here is the Apple link that explains the purposes of them: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202628. There are certainly other sources outside of Apple that explain them as well.

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Indeed--per the Usteer setup link I posted previously, I assume many readers (including myself initially) miss this important note:

Note: On previous versions of OpenWrt, the config option “bss_transition” used to be called “ieee80211v”. If migrating from an older version, please update this config-option too!

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Usteer kicks devices to force transition rather than leaving it up to the client devices?

Seems from that link like BSS color should be different for all APs?

Hmm, ok. In that case 802.11v could be masking any issues in the 802.11r code by forcibly yeeting clients that stick to an AP.

Sort of, but out of the box it's less forcible than Dawn and is more of a "helper" for roaming. This probably explains it better than I just did: https://openwrt.org/docs/guide-user/network/wifi/usteer?s[]=usteer#setting_up_usteer_and_band-steering_in_openwrt

I have had really good success with Usteer (as opposed to Dawn). Here is how I have Usteer configured:

Usteer Config
config usteer
	# The network interface for inter-AP communication
	option 'network' 'lan'

	# Log messages to syslog (0/1)
	option 'syslog' '1'

	# Disable network communication (0/1)
	option local_mode '0'

	# Use IPv6 for remote exchange
	option 'ipv6' '0'

	# Minimum level of logged messages
	# 0 = fatal
	# 1 = info
	# 2 = verbose
	# 3 = some debug messages
	# 4 = network packet information
	# 5 = all debug messages
	option 'debug_level' '2'

	# Maximum number of neighbor reports set for a node
	#option max_neighbor_reports 8

	# Maximum amount of time (ms) a station may be blocked due to policy decisions
	#option sta_block_timeout 30000

	# Maximum amount of time (ms) a local unconnected station is tracked
	#option local_sta_timeout 120000

	# Maximum amount of time (ms) a measurement report is stored
	#option measurement_report_timeout 120000

	# Local station information update interval (ms)
	#option local_sta_update 1000

	# Maximum number of consecutive times a station may be blocked by policy
	#option max_retry_band 5

	# Maximum idle time of a station entry (ms) to be considered for policy decisions
	#option seen_policy_timeout 30000

	# Minimum number of stations delta between APs before load balancing policy is active
	#option load_balancing_threshold 0

	# Minimum number of stations delta between bands before band steering policy is active
	#option band_steering_threshold 5

	# Interval (ms) between sending state updates to other APs
	#option remote_update_interval 1000

	# Number of remote update intervals after which a remote-node is deleted
	#option remote_node_timeout 10

	# Allow rejecting assoc requests for steering purposes (0/1)
	option assoc_steering 1

	# Allow ignoring probe requests for steering purposes (0/1)
	#option probe_steering 0

	# Minimum signal-to-noise ratio or signal level (dBm) to allow connections
	#option min_connect_snr 0

	# Minimum signal-to-noise ratio or signal level (dBm) to remain connected
	#option min_snr 0

	# Timeout after which a station with snr < min_snr will be kicked
	#option min_snr_kick_delay 5000

	# Timeout (ms) for which a client will not be steered after rejecting a BSS-transition-request
	#option steer_reject_timeout 60000

	# Timeout (in ms) after which a association following a disassociation is not seen
	# as a roam
	#option roam_process_timeout 5000

	# Minimum signal-to-noise ratio or signal level (dBm) before attempting to trigger
	# client scans for roaming
	#option roam_scan_snr 0

	# Maximum number of client roaming scan trigger attempts
	#option roam_scan_tries 3

	# Retry scanning when roam_scan_tries is exceeded after this timeout (in ms)
	# In case this option is set to 0, the client is kicked instead
	#option roam_scan_timeout 0

	# Minimum time (ms) between client roaming scan trigger attempts
	#option roam_scan_interval 10000

	# Minimum signal-to-noise ratio or signal level (dBm) before attempting to trigger
	# forced client roaming
	#option roam_trigger_snr 0

	# Minimum time (ms) between client roaming trigger attempts
	#option roam_trigger_interval 60000

	# Timeout (ms) for client roam requests. usteer will kick the client after this times out.
	#option roam_kick_delay 10000

	# Minimum signal strength difference until AP steering policy is active
	#option signal_diff_threshold 0

	# Initial delay (ms) before responding to probe requests (to allow other APs to see packets as well)
	#option initial_connect_delay 0

	# Enable kicking client on excessive channel load (0/1)
	#option load_kick_enabled 0

	# Minimum channel load (%) before kicking clients
	#option load_kick_threshold 75

	# Minimum amount of time (ms) that channel load is above threshold before starting to kick clients
	#option load_kick_delay 10000

	# Minimum number of connected clients before kicking based on channel load
	#option load_kick_min_clients 10

	# Reason code on client kick based on channel load (default: WLAN_REASON_DISASSOC_AP_BUSY)
	#option load_kick_reason_code 5

	# Attempting to steer clients to a higher frequency-band every n ms.
	# A value of 0 disabled band-steering.
	#option band_steering_interval 120000

	# Minimal SNR or absolute signal a device has to maintain over band_steering_interval to be
	# steered to a higher frequency band
	#option band_steering_min_snr -60

	# Interval (ms) the device is sent a link-measurement request to help assess
	# the bi-directional link quality. Setting the interval to 0 disables link-measurements.
	#option link_measurement_interval 30000

	# Script to run after bringing up a node
	#option node_up_script ''

	# Message types to include in log
	# Available types:
	# - probe_req_accept
	# - probe_req_deny
	# - auth_req_accept
	# - auth_req_deny
	# - assoc_req_accept
	# - assoc_req_deny
	# - load_kick_trigger
	# - load_kick_reset
	# - load_kick_min_clients
	# - load_kick_no_client
	# - load_kick_client
	# - signal_kick
	#list event_log_types ''

	# List of SSIDs to enable steering on
	list ssid_list '<redacted SSID 1>'
	list ssid_list '<redacted SSID 2>'
	list ssid_list '<redacted SSID 3>'

The most significant modification from OOB settings (outside of adding your SSIDs to the ssid_list is this:

# Allow rejecting assoc requests for steering purposes (0/1)
option assoc_steering 1
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Here's another link to those interested in some ongoing Usteer conversation: Lets talk about usteer

I would caution that you start minimal with Usteer and only start tweaking once you have a good baseline established.

See my minimal config here: 802.11ax worse than 802.11ac with mt76 driver? - #292 by _FailSafe

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It seems from reading like I should set bss_color to 1, 2 and 3 for my 3x AP's (5.4Ghz only, since 2.4 on RT3200 doesn't support AX). This ought to be helpful because they all operate on same frequency given my use of WDS. Does that seem correct to you?

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I forgot about your APs being on the same channel due to WDS! My understanding is that you would be correct in setting the BSS color of each AP to a unique number. This seems even more beneficial in your case than mine given my APs are all on different channels.

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I'm super hopeful that one of these changes might fix my problem. Many thanks indeed.

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So for a WDS server/client pair is it better to set he_bss_color to the same or different values on each device?

I was avoiding dropping a Cisco link in here originally, but I feel like the inquiring minds need more details than I can confidently provide. :slight_smile:

Reference link: https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/wireless/controller/9800/17-7/config-guide/b_wl_17_7_cg/m_bss_coloring_ewlc.pdf

Specific excerpts from the link:

BSS Coloring is a new provision that allows devices operating in the same frequency space to quickly distinguish between packets from their own BSS and packets from an Overlapping BSS (OBSS), by simply looking at the BSS color value contained in the HE PHY header. In some scenarios, Spatial Reuse allows devices, to transmit at the same time as the OBSS packets they receive, instead of deferring transmissions because of legacy interference thresholds. Since every Wi-Fi 6 device understands the BSS color, it can be leveraged to increase power savings by dropping packets earlier, and to identify spatial reuse opportunities.

BSS Coloring is a method used to differentiate between the BSS of access points and their clients on the same RF channel. Wi-Fi 6 enables each AP radio to assign a value (from 1 to 63), known as BSS color, to be included in the PHY header of all HE transmissions from devices in its BSS. With devices of each BSS transmitting a locally-unique color, a device can quickly and easily distinguish transmissions coming from its BSS from those of a neighboring BSS.

With all that said, I'm not sure exactly how this relates specifically to WDS. I am not a WDS expert. Might be a question better addressed by experts like @nbd.

@Energyx how's it looking for you?

I likewise came across and read that helpful Cisco publication when researching what BSS colouring does. My understanding is that the idea is to set different colour values for same frequency APs. And WDS requires same frequency. So seems like BSS colour has particular application for a WDS context.

Got tied up with some other stuff, but plan to test it in the next few days. Honestly, the AC works so well, even compared to my old ORBI Pros.

All: is this the best way to enable 802.11k and 802.11v in OpenWrt:

It seems from the above that these really should be enabled.

A link would do better instead of a screenshot.

Interestingly LuCi removes both rrm-options (running a Snapshot) and set them explicitly to 0 when disabled, so they seem to be default.

There is also this one:

My curiosity remains about the best way to setup 802.11k and 802.11v in OpenWrt.

I didn't even realise until @_FailSafe pointed me to the Apple link here:

that these are supposed to be so beneficial.

It makes me think of a GUI with a button entitled: 'Enhanced Functionality' that is disabled by default.