LEDE Showcase page

Talk about Documentation
8

To me it sounds like there should be a new JOB description.

There are DEVS,
there are USERS,

CONFS (configurators) the new set of people who configure the packages in various NEW ways

On security:
It would be nice to see TOR as package.
Not just as having a TOR gateway for surfing in the TOR domain.

But more as offering Hidden services for IoT sensor stuff and other IoT things.
IoT is under fire by 'stupid' politicians who slander IoT for not being secure.
(We all know how politicians making the net LESS secure with their policies)
SO
Is it possible to add security by default? And make something like TOR a DEFAULT SECURITY FEATURE (Mind the CAPS) :slight_smile:

I'm more TOR minded since i find VPN a bit prone to corruption.
It's comparable with paying mobsters for 'protection money'
And TOR is not depending on that kind of scheme.
Not sure if I2P is also an option?

I understand that the DEVS would like to see all of us become DEVS, but thats not diversity...
To have more diversity that also brings in more diverse people with more diverse wishes, who in turn will also bring in more diverse DEVS? I think so... This will take some time, but then the DEVS will have more DEVS on their team, but the whole project will gain diversity.

Ok so much for my Utopian LEDE vision. :smiley:

I think we all just want to do what we are good at, not just do what others expect from us.
I'm no DEV, i wish i could bring my brain to do DEV stuff. Lets not torture non DEV brains, lets explore the CONF brain?

What kind of non DEV people doe we have? What are those people good at? How can they use their special talents to make LEDE greater?

Brainstorming does not hurt DEVS. Even stupid ideas have value in pointing out that something just sucks. But it's the good idea's that open exiting new doors.
IoT is on our doorstep. Oops WRONG! Routers are all IoT things. But this will get ever more crazy.
And without good security the politicians will keep doing their shit to "our work" The work of our DEVS.
And that sucks. We need to think ahead, and brain our way to the future.

9

@stangri Good job listing LEDE's strong points (above). I propose the following for a "Why Use LEDE?" section on the www.lede-project.org home page. I would place this text immediately above "LEDE Wants You!"

Comments, please...

Why Use LEDE?

  • LEDE provides a stable, robust, secure, and high performance firmware for home routers and embedded devices. With LEDE, you won't have to worry about rebooting your router frequently, errors in the router code, security flaws, or poor performance.
  • LEDE firmware is a complete replacement for stock home router firmware. You get all the benefits above by installing LEDE.
  • LEDE is built on industry-standard and well-tested open source code. Consequently, it is immune to the majority of attacks that are publicized in the press on a regular basis.
  • LEDE also offers a broad set of add-on packages that provide:
  • Ad-blocking to avoid the worst of popups and annoying web images
  • VPN services, to allow secure access to your home network while you're away
  • Secure access to remote services to avoid snooping on your traffic while you're browsing from home.
  • Guest Wi-Fi networks, that are firewalled from private/business/family networks
  • Time limits & parental controls for selected devices
  • And many other capabilities.
  • LEDE is open source software (GPLv2), so you can install it on your router/device at no cost
  • LEDE is built and supported by a vibrant team of volunteers who ensure its success by using it themselves, and helping others succeed.

Update: If I don't hear back by Sunday evening, I'll post this to the www site. We can continue to edit it there.

10

[quote="richb-hanover, post:9, topic:270, full:true"]Comments, please...[/quote]I would tone a bit down the company-grade ad speech, I find that annoying. I think a modern company/project should be a bit more personal and talk to people in a simpler and more friendly way, explain more than state superlatives.
To say it in company-grade ad speech: "LEDE is made of people like you". :slight_smile:

rearranging the text (I know that reality isn't as good as I make it look like in there):

Why Use LEDE?

LEDE is more stable, offers more features, is more secure and has better support than the stock firmwares of most embedded devices we support.

  • Stable: a LEDE firmware is made of standardized modules used in all supported devices, therefore the amount of testing and bug fixing each module receives is far superior than any commercial product's stock firmware where many software components are tweaked for each product line (and never touched again).

  • Features: LEDE provides advanced functionality found only in high-end devices, and then some, with more than 3000 application packages ready to be installed. All advanced features are standardized, you will be able to easily replicate the same setup on any supported device.

  • Security: LEDE's software components are kept up-to-date and and any vulnerability is closed by updates offered shortly after it is discovered. LEDE is immune to exploits that still plague most commercial products, that use (very) outdated software and don't really update anything after a few years.

  • Support: In LEDE's forums, IRC and mailing lists you can interact directly with developers, volunteers managing the software modules and with other long-time LEDE users, drastically increasing the chances you will solve the issue at hand.

  • No additional cost: LEDE is provided free of any monetary cost thanks to the effort of volunteer contributors (both individuals and companies). If you find it great consider helping us keeping it great for others too!

  • Open Source: All of the above points are possible because LEDE is part of the Open Source community, and powered by Linux kernel. In case you were wondering, the penguin in the logo is Tux, Linux's mascotte/symbol.

...........................

note that I know I'm not placing the monetary cost and Open Source in the first sentence.
People should use LEDE because it is better than stock firmware, not because it is free (as stock firmware is also "free" if you buy the hardware).
Also Open Source is cool but is just a "it does not cost money" for most people.

I'm unsure about placing this in the list above. Would be cool to place only features that work and have a luci user interface, otherwise it's kinda a lie.

11

This may be part of a broader discussion about our audience, but I think a major obligation of the home page is to explain, quite clearly, what LEDE is, and give powerful reasons that people might care about it. [Note, I'm not entirely happy with my proposal in #9 above...]

The writing on the current home page is dry to the point of being abstract. It talks about a "meta-distribution", spinning away from a mother project, and governance models, but fails to mention that it'll solve your bufferbloat and eliminate lockups that require reboots.

[Only slightly OT: I was trained as an engineer/software developer, but once upon a time, I took a sales course. The major useful lesson was that people buy stuff (or in LEDE's case, install the firmware) because they have pain. If someone breaks their leg, they'll do just about anything to stop the pain. If it's killing you not to have that red Miata, then "all you have to do" is give up some money to make that pain go away. If I have to reboot my router twice a week... jeez, I wish there were a way to make that problem go away.]

I assert that it's the job of the LEDE home page to point out to newcomers the common problems that are pain points for people, and talk about how LEDE solves them. (I think of these as the "benefits" of using LEDE.)

A couple examples:

  • "Stable" doesn't really tell a reader much. "Lack of stability" is a problem, but most newcomers won't recognize it by that name. "Rebooting the router a couple times a week" - now that's something that I recognize (and hate, and wish would go away.) Saying that most people never need to reboot a LEDE router shows a real benefit.
  • "High performance" - every manufacturer touts high performance, so it doesn't mean anything, nor is it a problem. Lagging out - now that's a problem. And if LEDE can stop lagging out, I'm all for it.
  • "Features" - again, not a benefit that anyone would understand. But calling out the specific benefit that flows from a feature (e.g., Secure your traffic against snooping (a benefit) comes from the VPN "feature"; separating Guest from home/office Wi-Fi is a benefit that comes from an easy-to-configure firewall feature; etc.)
  • "It's fun!" - for the people reading this forum, that's a definite benefit. But for most people who just want a good router at home, this does not sound anything like fun. So I would be tempted not to list this as a benefit.
  • Open Source. Yawn. So it's free... Again, except for the price, not a benefit.

There's no shame in vivid writing, especially if it keeps newcomers reading to the point that they recognize that they experience the kinds of problems LEDE can fix.

I think our challenge is to come up with a (short-ish) list of compelling benefits that LEDE provides, and talk them up in a lively way on the home page. Anyone want to come up with one or two?

PS I think these benefits can be "aspirational". That is, even if LEDE doesn't offer a benefit today (because that package is crashing this week, or perhaps hasn't even been integrated yet), we can write the home page with the same sense of "knowing it's gonna happen", just as we write about offering a stable version for LEDE. Not this month, but soon.

12

Ah, I could tell we're kindred spirits. :wink:

  • LEDE contains no hidden backdoors or bugs left by hardware vendors -- thanks to LEDE being an open source project with many developers from all over the world reviewing and writing the code.
  • LEDE is extendable -- unlike the vendor-supplied firmware for your router which is limited to the features provided (similar to the feature-phones), LEDE allows you to add additional features by installing packages (similar to installing apps on the smart phones). Some of the most popular additional features are listed at LEDE Showcase page.
  • LEDE prolongs the life of your router -- while vendors are known to only provide updates for your router until the newer model is released, LEDE strives to support all models with the feature and security updates for extended periods of time [would be great to either add some stats on that here or explain in once sentence that flash/rom are the only limiting factors].
13

We are aiming at different targets. I'm aiming at power users and linux users, you are aiming lower than that, to more common (windows/apple) users.

Both are legal targets, issue is that we need to make something that isn't insulting for power users while being easy enough to comprehend for common users.

(I personally don't think many common users will actually know what a "firmware" is nor care of most of LEDE's points, if they get a crappy/unstable device they are just buying another from a different brand. Hence why I'm not targeting them)

[quote="richb-hanover, post:11, topic:270, full:true"]* "Stable" doesn't really tell a reader much. "Lack of stability" is a problem, but most newcomers won't recognize it by that name. "Rebooting the router a couple times a week" - now that's something that I recognize (and hate, and wish would go away.) Saying that most people never need to reboot a LEDE router shows a real benefit.[/quote]Ok for a more dow-to-earth explanantion, but I've never encountered large quantities of routers that needed to be rebooted frequently to workaround issues, so that claim might be seen as lying about competitors, which is usually bad practice because reasons.
If you find something that rings true and is also easy to understand, I'm ok with adding it.

[quote]* "High performance" - every manufacturer touts high performance, so it doesn't mean anything, nor is it a problem. Lagging out - now that's a problem. And if LEDE can stop lagging out, I'm all for it.[/quote]As-is, LEDE isn't performing significantly better than commercial products for common users (for many it even goes worse, because open drivers are less performing than closed ones or some features are unsupported), so I'd say this will again look like a lie.

Don't take me wrong, but if you tote "higher performance" people will expect faster Internet or better wifi coverage, and this isn't usually offered by LEDE (for Atheros chips it's getting better when they merge the patches of the "make wifi fast" team, but again that's not something a common user is likely to notice).

[quote]* "Features" - again, not a benefit that anyone would understand. But calling out the specific benefit that flows from a feature (e.g., Secure your traffic against snooping (a benefit) comes from the VPN "feature"; separating Guest from home/office Wi-Fi is a benefit that comes from an easy-to-configure firewall feature; etc.)[/quote]That's fine to add examples to explain, as long as it is stuff with a working luci-app, and as such is usable by the target of your statements.
You probably have missed that the points above were "cool stuff we can do from command line but there is no luci-app for them yet".

[quote]* "It's fun!" - for the people reading this forum, that's a definite benefit. But for most people who just want a good router at home, this does not sound anything like fun. So I would be tempted not to list this as a benefit.[/quote]I never placed a "fun" anywhere. Running LEDE isn't "fun", embedded devices are infrastructure for people's lives. You notice of infrastructure only when it does not blend in or breaks.

[quote]* Open Source. Yawn. So it's free... Again, except for the price, not a benefit.[/quote]As said above, I'm stating that "All of the above points are possible because LEDE is part of the Open Source community".
I'm doing what I can to show that Open Source isn't just "free", but a prerequisite for the above points.

[quote]PS I think these benefits can be "aspirational". That is, even if LEDE doesn't offer a benefit today (because that package is crashing this week, or perhaps hasn't even been integrated yet), we can write the home page with the same sense of "knowing it's gonna happen", just as we write about offering a stable version for LEDE. Not this month, but soon.
[/quote]Ok but let's not go overboard with wisful thinking. See above, you risk writing things that will be seen as lies and shooting yourself in the foot.

14

Flexibility / Versatility in stead of features. Other systems have many features but to me it's not really about the features but more about the versatile way these little machines can be put to use

15

We should aim to educate/help people who know less than we do rather than ignore/exclude them.

16

We should aim to educate/help people who know less than we do rather than ignore/exclude them.

not targeting them is not excluding them. The project has very little manpower,
it can't do everything. If it's easy/cheap to provide support, it makes sense to
do so. If it hurts the common case or is a bunch of work, we should let it go
until someone steps up to do the work.

David Lang

17

[quote="stangri, post:15, topic:270, full:true"]We should aim to educate/help people who know less than we do rather than ignore/exclude them.[/quote]Only if they are genuinely interested. Makes no sense to target people not insterested in LEDE as their solution to all mentioned problems is "buy another device" or don't need the features.

18

OK. Lots of good discussion: I'm going to "call the question."

The home page still doesn't say, "Why You Should Use LEDE?" Does anyone want to post a first cut to address the question? Thanks.

19

So what, what I posted is not good enough? Did it get lost in all the trolling?

20

I posted mine already, I need to integrate a bit the feedback I received maybe, and the points posted by stangri that are interesting for other LEDE potential targets.

21

I posted mine, too, mostly as a straw-man proposal. If you two want to hammer out some common wording, Go For It! Thanks.

22

How can we lower the barrier to get new users interested in LEDE?

There are people who probably are interested but who are reluctant to take the dive.
What are the main reasons that hold them back.

The technical aspect?
The community aspect? (not wanting to look noob-ish?)
The fear to render a router into a brick or other work of art?

For instance with the fear example a wiki page that explains a few things about flashing that could take that fear away, or at least make it more easy to make the choice to give it a try more easy.

The community aspect will need us as a community to be inviting to new users. And that may not be easy for just anyone, as new users have many questions, and may prefer to ask then to human beings instead of using a search engine.
How to we then deal with that? Answer anyway but short? Do the search for them (and post the link) with a short answer? What whould be most inviting for new users?

The technical aspect. I'm not a developer myself and i never will be one. But i want far to often to do something with a router that's not actually ready yet. And then my questions get dev style solutions. I can imagine that new users may run into the same thing. and THAT could put them off.

I think short video tutorials would be a big help here.

For every FAQ a short video answer on a good youtube alternative that offers better privacy then 'googletube'. A decentralised platform like mediagoblin would be cool but i'm not sure if that is a feasible route.
If routers where a bit more powerful then we could host stuff like that decentralised on our own?
Bold suggestion? :smiley:

23

Any additional information helping people get LEDE would never hurt.

Having said that...

  1. I've had my fair share of playback issues with "better than googletube" providers. While I understand the privacy concerns, I believe youtube would be the best solution.
  2. In general, I'm not crazy about video tutorials, they're the last thing I'll try when looking something up, as many will suffer from annoying background music, inaudible voice, hard to read text and inability to jump the next step right away -- you'll have to wait until video catches up to where you are.

I'd take a good text-based tutorial with highly visible and easy to copy code (should any be ran from CLI) or descriptive screenshots any day over a video.

I hope that the above would not discourage you from making your own videos tho. I'm sure that if you the video tutorial pitfalls, your videos would be highly popular.

24

That's exactly what I am thinking about video tutorials.
With text, you can quickly read across and find the interesting part.
With video, you practically have to watch the whole video, in order not to miss anything important.

In addition to this: Creating videos takes a considerable amount of time, which is often underestimated. If somebody has the time, the knowledge about the respective tutorial content, the knowledge about creating high quality videos, the necessary hardware (cam): Yes please, go ahead!

For easy embedding of those videos, we have the vshare plugin installed. See https://www.dokuwiki.org/plugin:vshare for usage and syntax.

Example: https://wiki.openwrt.org/doc/howto/easycwmp

25

@stangri, @tmomas

I also agree on the comment about video tutorials, but in many other area's i see that new users often tend to use video tutorials before anything else these days.

So in this regard it then would be good to review and re-iterate. But that takes even more effort...

Or we could search on the tube for existing video's and use those. (if a good one exists on the topic)

And if a video had bad audio we could eventually download edit re-do the audio track. Then we don't have to do the recording, just remix existing content. Or is that considered to be stealing these days?

Those people use the software that they downloaded gratis so why would we not be allowed to use their recording? (This way they also give back to the community right?)

We could also make a forum section where endusers can post links to their tutorials!
This way we can give feedback on those tuts, and maybe we get tutorials from people who are really good at making video tuts. This way we can teach a thing or two and learn a thing or two while reviewing their work.

They may not have coding skills, but if their video skills can help then they still give back to the community. Maybe we could make a list of tutorials that we need, and then let people pick a topic that they know something about. Though they will need feedback so that they can improve their work.

Screenshots would also make a great addition to wiki tutorials.

Again because new users most likely will start with the GUI.

Speaking about GUI, I would like to see mouseovers in the GUI that show the command that coresponds to the GUI action. This way the GUI gradually can teach about the CLI commands. And it could break down the barrier to doing CLI stuff simply by having some visible hints in the GUI.

This could eventually look cluttered, But if it is in a theme then users who want to turn the clutter of can switch back to the old theme?
And yea... someone would have to build that theme and maintain it.

Maybe someone has a clever idea to meet somewhere in the middle?

26

After you make your changes in Web UI, hit SAVE instead of SAVE & APPLY and then you'll have another button in the top-right corner CHANGES: x. Clicking on this button will bring up a window which shows underlying changes to the uci config.

27

yes, but tats only if you go look for it. And after making a change. New users will want to know before they change something. But indeed this is already a lot of useful info. And it made me realise that i spend more time in the CLI then anywhere else, I totally forgot about it.

This stuff deserves i spot on the showcase page.