Kernel Warning Archer C7

Hi,

I get this warning in my C7. The router is working like a charm, is only for informational purposes.

[10876.666233] ------------[ cut here ]------------
[10876.670997] WARNING: CPU: 0 PID: 3 at net/core/dev.c:4863 net_rx_action+0x138/0x2c8()
[10876.678931] Modules linked in: pppoe ppp_async ath9k pppox ppp_generic nf_conntrack_ipv6 iptable_nat
ipt_REJECT ipt_MASQUERADE ath9k_common xt_time xt_tcpudp xt_state xt_nat xt_multiport xt_mark xt_mac xt_limit
xt_conntrack xt_comment xt_TCPMSS xt_REDIRECT xt_LOG xt_CT slhc nf_reject_ipv4 nf_nat_redirect nf_nat_masquerade_ipv4
nf_conntrack_ipv4 nf_nat_ipv4 nf_nat nf_log_ipv4 nf_defrag_ipv6 nf_defrag_ipv4 nf_conntrack_rtcache nf_conntrack
iptable_mangle iptable_filter ip_tables crc_ccitt ath9k_hw ath10k_pci ath10k_core ath mac80211 cfg80211 compat
ledtrig_usbport ip6t_REJECT nf_reject_ipv6 nf_log_ipv6 nf_log_common ip6table_mangle ip6table_filter ip6_tables
x_tables usb_storage sd_mod scsi_mod f2fs ext4 jbd2 mbcache crc16 crc32c_generic crypto_hash ehci_platform ehci_hcd
gpio_button_hotplug usbcore nls_base usb_common


root@Router:~# uname -a
Linux Router 4.4.61 #0 Wed May 10 22:53:05 2017 mips GNU/Linux

Is it normal?

Thanks a lot,

No, a warning is never normal, but you missed to copy the most important parts of the warning.

Sorry, here comes the full warning log:

[10876.666233] ------------[ cut here ]------------
[10876.670997] WARNING: CPU: 0 PID: 3 at net/core/dev.c:4863 net_rx_action+0x138/0x2c8()
[10876.678931] Modules linked in: pppoe ppp_async ath9k pppox ppp_generic nf_conntrack_ipv6 iptable_nat ipt_REJECT ipt_MASQUERADE ath9k_common xt_time xt_tcpudp xt_state xt_nat xt_multiport xt_mark xt_mac xt_limit xt_conntrack xt_comment xt_TCPMSS xt_REDIRECT xt_LOG xt_CT slhc nf_reject_ipv4 nf_nat_redirect nf_nat_masquerade_ipv4 nf_conntrack_ipv4 nf_nat_ipv4 nf_nat nf_log_ipv4 nf_defrag_ipv6 nf_defrag_ipv4 nf_conntrack_rtcache nf_conntrack iptable_mangle iptable_filter ip_tables crc_ccitt ath9k_hw ath10k_pci ath10k_core ath mac80211 cfg80211 compat ledtrig_usbport ip6t_REJECT nf_reject_ipv6 nf_log_ipv6 nf_log_common ip6table_mangle ip6table_filter ip6_tables x_tables usb_storage sd_mod scsi_mod f2fs ext4 jbd2 mbcache crc16 crc32c_generic crypto_hash ehci_platform ehci_hcd gpio_button_hotplug usbcore nls_base usb_common
[10876.752982] CPU: 0 PID: 3 Comm: ksoftirqd/0 Not tainted 4.4.61 #0
[10876.759160] Stack : 803ee4d0 00000000 00000001 80440000 87c2cc94 80438e63 803cfadc 00000003
[10876.759160] 804a378c 00000040 0000004a 000000cc 00000001 800a7704 803d51cc 80430000
[10876.759160] 00000003 00000040 803d35d8 87c45d3c 00000001 800a5680 00000000 00000000
[10876.759160] 00000001 801fa700 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
[10876.759160] 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
[10876.759160] ...
[10876.795522] Call Trace:
[10876.798015] [<80071f50>] show_stack+0x50/0x84
[10876.802454] [<80081d00>] warn_slowpath_common+0xa0/0xd0
[10876.807760] [<80081db8>] warn_slowpath_null+0x18/0x24
[10876.812898] [<80278760>] net_rx_action+0x138/0x2c8
[10876.817760] [<8008427c>] __do_softirq+0x250/0x298
[10876.822547] [<800842ec>] run_ksoftirqd+0x28/0x60
[10876.827238] [<8009ad50>] smpboot_thread_fn+0x158/0x188
[10876.832471] [<80098780>] kthread+0xd8/0xec
[10876.836633] [<80060878>] ret_from_kernel_thread+0x14/0x1c
[10876.842112]
[10876.843624] ---[ end trace cf6ad6b558b768e9 ]---
[45347.268679] conntrack: generic helper won't handle protocol 47. Please consider loading the specific helper module.
root@Router:~#

Hi,

I have updated my router to the lastest firmware version (with the same kernel version), and the warning is over.
Whatever it was, it seems to be solved.

Thanks,

Did you reinstall all your manually installed packages? Because when you sysupgrade, you loose them and have to reinstall them. Maybe your problem was caused by one of them, and now it's out of the way.

I've checked, I don't have those warnings in my logs (I do have Archer C7 too).

I did the sysupgrade and then reinstalled all the missing packages (ddns, luci-ssl, sqm...).
The kernel version is the same as the "faulty" version (4.4.61), maybe the problem was one of the packages.

Now I have the same packages as before upgrading and the warning is over.

Noo!!! :slight_smile::slight_smile:

Here comes again!!!

[   32.018752] br-lan: port 3(wlan0) entered forwarding state
[   43.528935] random: nonblocking pool is initialized
[19903.492804] ------------[ cut here ]------------
[19903.497557] WARNING: CPU: 0 PID: 3 at net/core/dev.c:4863 net_rx_action+0x138/0x2c8()
[19903.505527] Modules linked in: pppoe ppp_async ath9k pppox ppp_generic nf_conntrack_ipv6 iptable_nat ipt_REJECT ipt_MASQUERADE ath9k_common xt_time xt_tcpudp xt_tcpmss xt_statistic xt_state xt_recent xt_nat xt_multiport xt_mark xt_mac xt_limit xt_length xt_hl xt_helper xt_ecn xt_dscp xt_conntrack xt_connmark xt_connlimit xt_connbytes xt_comment xt_TCPMSS xt_REDIRECT xt_LOG xt_HL xt_DSCP xt_CT xt_CLASSIFY slhc nf_reject_ipv4 nf_nat_redirect nf_nat_masquerade_ipv4 nf_conntrack_ipv4 nf_nat_ipv4 nf_nat nf_log_ipv4 nf_defrag_ipv6 nf_defrag_ipv4 nf_conntrack_rtcache iptable_mangle iptable_filter ipt_ECN ip_tables crc_ccitt ath9k_hw sch_cake nf_conntrack act_skbedit act_mirred em_u32 cls_u32 cls_tcindex cls_flow cls_route cls_fw sch_tbf sch_htb sch_hfsc sch_ingress ath10k_pci ath10k_core ath mac80211 cfg80211 compat ledtrig_usbport ip6t_REJECT nf_reject_ipv6 nf_log_ipv6 nf_log_common ip6table_mangle ip6table_filter ip6_tables x_tables ifb usb_storage sd_mod scsi_mod f2fs ext4 jbd2 mbcache crc16 crc32c_generic crypto_hash ehci_platform ehci_hcd gpio_button_hotplug usbcore nls_base usb_common
[19903.603773] CPU: 0 PID: 3 Comm: ksoftirqd/0 Not tainted 4.4.61 #0
[19903.609952] Stack : 803ee4d0 00000000 00000001 80440000 87c2cc94 80438e63 803cfad4 00000003
[19903.609952]    804a378c 00000040 00000044 0000012c 00000001 800a7704 803d51c4 80430000
[19903.609952]    00000003 00000040 803d35d0 87c45d3c 00000001 800a5680 00000000 00000000
[19903.609952]    00000001 801fa700 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
[19903.609952]    00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
[19903.609952]    ...
[19903.646313] Call Trace:
[19903.648807] [<80071f50>] show_stack+0x50/0x84
[19903.653244] [<80081d00>] warn_slowpath_common+0xa0/0xd0
[19903.658543] [<80081db8>] warn_slowpath_null+0x18/0x24
[19903.663690] [<80278760>] net_rx_action+0x138/0x2c8
[19903.668560] [<8008427c>] __do_softirq+0x250/0x298
[19903.673348] [<800842ec>] run_ksoftirqd+0x28/0x60
[19903.678038] [<8009ad50>] smpboot_thread_fn+0x158/0x188
[19903.683271] [<80098780>] kthread+0xd8/0xec
[19903.687433] [<80060878>] ret_from_kernel_thread+0x14/0x1c
[19903.692900]
[19903.694426] ---[ end trace 5f9847c1f5901d71 ]---
[35780.155724] conntrack: generic helper won't handle protocol 47. Please consider loading the specific helper module.

root@Router:~# dmesg | grep -i ath10k
[   13.406181] ath10k_pci 0000:01:00.0: pci irq legacy oper_irq_mode 1 irq_mode 0 reset_mode 0
[   13.622517] ath10k_pci 0000:01:00.0: Direct firmware load for ath10k/pre-cal-pci-0000:01:00.0.bin failed with error -2
[   13.633404] ath10k_pci 0000:01:00.0: Falling back to user helper
[   13.736836] firmware ath10k!pre-cal-pci-0000:01:00.0.bin: firmware_loading_store: map pages failed
[   14.052591] ath10k_pci 0000:01:00.0: qca988x hw2.0 target 0x4100016c chip_id 0x043202ff sub 0000:0000
[   14.061992] ath10k_pci 0000:01:00.0: kconfig debug 0 debugfs 1 tracing 0 dfs 1 testmode 1
[   14.074992] ath10k_pci 0000:01:00.0: firmware ver 10.2.4-1.0-00029 api 5 features no-p2p,raw-mode,mfp,allows-mesh-bcast crc32 88595bb8
[   14.119929] ath10k_pci 0000:01:00.0: board id is not exist in otp, ignore it
[   14.127179] ath10k_pci 0000:01:00.0: Direct firmware load for ath10k/QCA988X/hw2.0/board-2.bin failed with error -2
[   14.137788] ath10k_pci 0000:01:00.0: Falling back to user helper
[   14.228543] firmware ath10k!QCA988X!hw2.0!board-2.bin: firmware_loading_store: map pages failed
[   14.251048] ath10k_pci 0000:01:00.0: board_file api 1 bmi_id N/A crc32 bebc7c08
[   15.414758] ath10k_pci 0000:01:00.0: htt-ver 2.1 wmi-op 5 htt-op 2 cal file max-sta 128 raw 0 hwcrypto 1
[19903.505527] Modules linked in: pppoe ppp_async ath9k pppox ppp_generic nf_conntrack_ipv6 iptable_nat ipt_REJECT ipt_MASQUERADE ath9k_common xt_time xt_tcpudp xt_tcpmss xt_statistic xt_state xt_recent xt_nat xt_multiport xt_mark xt_mac xt_limit xt_length xt_hl xt_helper xt_ecn xt_dscp xt_conntrack xt_connmark xt_connlimit xt_connbytes xt_comment xt_TCPMSS xt_REDIRECT xt_LOG xt_HL xt_DSCP xt_CT xt_CLASSIFY slhc nf_reject_ipv4 nf_nat_redirect nf_nat_masquerade_ipv4 nf_conntrack_ipv4 nf_nat_ipv4 nf_nat nf_log_ipv4 nf_defrag_ipv6 nf_defrag_ipv4 nf_conntrack_rtcache iptable_mangle iptable_filter ipt_ECN ip_tables crc_ccitt ath9k_hw sch_cake nf_conntrack act_skbedit act_mirred em_u32 cls_u32 cls_tcindex cls_flow cls_route cls_fw sch_tbf sch_htb sch_hfsc sch_ingress ath10k_pci ath10k_core ath mac80211 cfg80211 compat ledtrig_usbport ip6t_REJECT nf_reject_ipv6 nf_log_ipv6 nf_log_common ip6table_mangle ip6table_filter ip6_tables x_tables ifb usb_storage sd_mod scsi_mod f2fs ext4 jbd2 mbcache crc16 crc32c_generic crypto_hash ehci_platform ehci_hcd gpio_button_hotplug usbcore nls_base usb_common
root@Router:~#

root@Router:~# uname -a
Linux Router 4.4.61 #0 Tue May 16 10:10:39 2017 mips GNU/Linux
root@Router:~#

Maybe the problem is the wifi driver?

-----------------------------------------------
Linux version 4.4.71 (buildbot@builds) (gcc version 5.4.0 (LEDE GCC 5.4.0 r4362-5e4bb47) ) 
-----------------------------------------------
[15647.434086] ------------[ cut here ]------------
[15647.438832] WARNING: CPU: 0 PID: 3 at net/core/dev.c:4863 net_rx_action+0x138/0x2c8()
[15647.446781] Modules linked in: pppoe ppp_async ath9k pppox ppp_generic nf_conntrack_ipv6 iptable_nat ipt_REJECT ipt_MASQUERADE ath9k_common xt_time xt_tcpudp xt_tcpmss xt_statistic xt_state xt_recent xt_nat xt_multiport xt_mark xt_mac xt_limit xt_length xt_hl xt_helper xt_ecn xt_dscp xt_conntrack xt_connmark xt_connlimit xt_connbytes xt_comment xt_TCPMSS xt_REDIRECT xt_LOG xt_HL xt_DSCP xt_CT xt_CLASSIFY slhc nf_reject_ipv4 nf_nat_redirect nf_nat_masquerade_ipv4 nf_conntrack_ipv4 nf_nat_ipv4 nf_nat nf_log_ipv4 nf_defrag_ipv6 nf_defrag_ipv4 nf_conntrack_rtcache iptable_mangle iptable_filter ipt_ECN ip_tables crc_ccitt ath9k_hw sch_cake nf_conntrack act_skbedit act_mirred em_u32 cls_u32 cls_tcindex cls_flow cls_route cls_fw sch_tbf sch_htb sch_hfsc sch_ingress ath10k_pci ath10k_core ath mac80211 cfg80211 compat ledtrig_usbport ip6t_REJECT nf_reject_ipv6 nf_log_ipv6 nf_log_common ip6table_mangle ip6table_filter ip6_tables x_tables ifb usb_storage sd_mod scsi_mod f2fs ext4 jbd2 mbcache crc16 crc32c_generic crypto_hash ehci_platform ehci_hcd gpio_button_hotplug usbcore nls_base usb_common
[15647.545057] CPU: 0 PID: 3 Comm: ksoftirqd/0 Not tainted 4.4.71 #0
[15647.551245] Stack : 803ee930 00000000 00000001 80450000 87c2cc94 8043ae63 803cff40 00000003
[15647.551245]    804b378c 00000040 00000046 00000116 00000001 800a7788 803d563c 80430000
[15647.551245]    00000003 00000040 803d3a48 87c45d3c 00000001 800a5704 00000000 00000000
[15647.551245]    00000001 801fa900 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
[15647.551245]    00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
[15647.551245]    ...
[15647.587588] Call Trace:
[15647.590124] [<800a7788>] vprintk_default+0x24/0x30
[15647.594993] [<800a5704>] printk+0x2c/0x38
[15647.599074] [<801fa900>] wait_for_xmitr+0xa8/0xcc
[15647.603862] [<80081d84>] warn_slowpath_common+0xa0/0xd0
[15647.609193] [<801ac840>] dump_stack+0x14/0x28
[15647.613619] [<80071fcc>] show_stack+0x50/0x84
[15647.618055] [<80081d84>] warn_slowpath_common+0xa0/0xd0
[15647.623377] [<802789a8>] net_rx_action+0x138/0x2c8
[15647.628271] [<80081e3c>] warn_slowpath_null+0x18/0x24
[15647.633416] [<802789a8>] net_rx_action+0x138/0x2c8
[15647.638312] [<80084300>] __do_softirq+0x250/0x298
[15647.643102] [<80084370>] run_ksoftirqd+0x28/0x60
[15647.647803] [<8009ac7c>] smpboot_thread_fn+0x0/0x188
[15647.652835] [<8009add4>] smpboot_thread_fn+0x158/0x188
[15647.658067] [<8009ac7c>] smpboot_thread_fn+0x0/0x188
[15647.663109] [<80067120>] schedule+0x64/0x7c
[15647.667364] [<8009ac7c>] smpboot_thread_fn+0x0/0x188
[15647.672418] [<80098804>] kthread+0xd8/0xec
[15647.676598] [<8009872c>] kthread+0x0/0xec
[15647.680684] [<80060878>] ret_from_kernel_thread+0x14/0x1c
[15647.686162]
[15647.687679] ---[ end trace edb1164ced173f28 ]---
[79951.948162] conntrack: generic helper won't handle protocol 47. Please consider loading the specific helper module.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Still there!!! Waiting for me!! :cry::cry::cry:

I'll keep trying to find why. :grinning::grinning::grinning:

using SQM?

Yes I'm using SQM, but, I'd tried to disable it and the warning still appears.

Interesting...

I've been getting the occasional similar, but not exactly the same, kind of error.
Also a TP-Link Archer C7, USA V3 though, not V2. Haven't looked to see if it's always been the same error in earlier instances. Have seen this in 17.01.1, possibly earlier, just changed to 17.01.2 about 4-5 days ago.

[302048.896029] ------------[ cut here ]------------
[302048.900816] WARNING: CPU: 0 PID: 0 at net/core/dev.c:4863 0x8026bdbc()
[302048.907579] Modules linked in: ifb sch_cake xt_tcpmss xt_statistic xt_length xt_hl xt_ecn xt_dscp xt_HL xt_DSCP xt_CLASSIFY ipt_ECN act_skbedit act_mirred em_u32 cls_u32 cls_tcindex cls_flow cls_route cls_fw sch_tbf sch_htb sch_hfsc sch_ingress xt_recent xt_helper xt_connmark xt_connlimit xt_connbytes pppoe ppp_async iptable_nat ath9k pppox ppp_generic nf_nat_ipv4 nf_conntrack_ipv6 nf_conntrack_ipv4 ipt_REJECT ipt_MASQUERADE ath9k_common xt_time xt_tcpudp xt_state xt_nat xt_multiport xt_mark xt_mac xt_limit xt_conntrack xt_comment xt_TCPMSS xt_REDIRECT xt_LOG xt_CT slhc nf_reject_ipv4 nf_nat_redirect nf_nat_masquerade_ipv4 nf_nat nf_log_ipv4 nf_defrag_ipv6 nf_defrag_ipv4 nf_conntrack_rtcache nf_conntrack iptable_mangle iptable_filter ip_tables crc_ccitt ath9k_hw ath10k_pci ath10k_core ath mac80211 cfg80211 compat ledtrig_usbport ip6t_REJECT nf_reject_ipv6 nf_log_ipv6 nf_log_common ip6table_mangle ip6table_filter ip6_tables x_tables ehci_platform ehci_hcd gpio_button_hotplug usbcore nls_base usb_common
[302048.998424] CPU: 0 PID: 0 Comm: swapper Not tainted 4.4.71 #0
[302049.004350] Stack : 80387554 00000000 00000001 803e0000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
[302049.004350] 	  00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
[302049.004350] 	  00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
[302049.004350] 	  00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
[302049.004350] 	  00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
[302049.004350] 	  ...
[302049.040797] Call Trace:[<80071a50>] 0x80071a50
[302049.045429] [<80071a50>] 0x80071a50
[302049.049054] [<80081804>] 0x80081804
[302049.052693] [<8026bdbc>] 0x8026bdbc
[302049.056324] [<800818bc>] 0x800818bc
[302049.059961] [<8026bdbc>] 0x8026bdbc
[302049.063607] [<80083d80>] 0x80083d80
[302049.067234] [<800ab91c>] 0x800ab91c
[302049.070861] [<800a7e34>] 0x800a7e34
[302049.074497] [<8006a950>] 0x8006a950
[302049.078121] [<80060bf4>] 0x80060bf4
[302049.081752] 
[302049.083355] ---[ end trace 5b5449b58671c870 ]---

Think I used to get something about the Ath10k, (9k?) before as well.
Hope some light gets shed on this to know whether to worry about or just ignore.

I'm pretty much running SQM and nothing else. Home router, cable modem in, 2.4G and 5G wifi single AP for the whole house.

Now I'm not running/installed SQM (I reflashed my router again), and the warning is still there.

Still nobody knows about this? I rebooted two weeks ago, had the same CPU warning line except for PID 0 instead of 3, and same stack and Call Trace number first line. 16 lines of addresses, rather than 10. What's that mean? Don't ask me.

Would like to know if it's truly nothing to worry about. So far, nothing noticiably wrong, except for a loss of 5ghz wifi after a round of trying different channels and power levels. That's why I rebooted.

Still just running SQM: Cake, Piece of Cake, and a few advanced settings mentioned in the instructions.

@JonP Are you using PPPoE and VLAN tagging?

In my case I'm using PPPoE and VLAN tagging (not using SQM).
Maybe the bug has something to do with PPPoE/VLAN.

Huh, thought I'd answered this....

No PPOE, just DOCSIS Cable Modem service common here in the US. And, now that I think about it I had a few of these earlier on, but much less often, on versons before 17.01.2. Seems like every boot I get one now.

I hope one day somebody could find why is happening.
It's just a matter time.

Despite of that "warning" the router is working great.

I am getting this warning as well

 [   50.269307] ------------[ cut here ]------------
[   50.274083] WARNING: CPU: 0 PID: 1850 at net/core/flow_dissector.c:958 __skb_flow_dissect+0x2c4/0x14d8
[   50.283538] Modules linked in: pppoe ppp_async iptable_nat batman_adv xt_state xt_nat xt_conntrack xt_REDIRECT xt_MASQUERADE xt_FLOWOFFLOAD pppox ppp_generic nf_nat nf_flow_table_hw nf_flow_table nf_conntrack_rtcache nf_conntrack mt76x2e mt76x2_common mt76x02_lib mt7603e mt76 mac80211 ipt_REJECT cfg80211 xt_time xt_tcpudp xt_multiport xt_mark xt_mac xt_limit xt_comment xt_TCPMSS xt_LOG slhc nf_reject_ipv4 nf_log_ipv4 nf_defrag_ipv6 nf_defrag_ipv4 libcrc32c iptable_mangle iptable_filter ip_tables crc_ccitt compat ledtrig_heartbeat nf_log_ipv6 nf_log_common ip6table_mangle ip6table_filter ip6_tables ip6t_REJECT x_tables nf_reject_ipv6 leds_gpio gpio_button_hotplug crc16 crc32c_generic crypto_hash
[   50.346099] CPU: 0 PID: 1850 Comm: kworker/u3:2 Not tainted 5.4.65 #0
[   50.352667] Workqueue: napi_workq napi_workfn
[   50.357094] Stack : 804ff0f4 8031446c 00000009 837c0d44 82fb8218 8005a8a0 83e4d67c 00000000
[   50.365592]         00000017 82f6883c 804f033c 82d17a7c 80580000 00000001 82d17a50 205224af
[   50.374080]         00000000 00000000 8059e390 00000000 716b726f 000000e1 6f775f69 6e666b72
[   50.382570]         00000000 00000002 00000000 0005619b 00000000 00000009 00000000 8031446c
[   50.391060]         00000009 837c0d44 82fb8218 80580000 00000000 80293ef0 00000000 806e0000
[   50.399554]         ...
[   50.402047] Call Trace:
[   50.404556] [<80009d60>] show_stack+0x30/0x100
[   50.409089] [<800239e8>] __warn+0xc0/0x10c
[   50.413255] [<80023a90>] warn_slowpath_fmt+0x5c/0xac
[   50.418306] [<8031446c>] __skb_flow_dissect+0x2c4/0x14d8
[   50.423708] [<80315930>] __skb_get_hash+0x7c/0x258
[   50.428734] [<83732578>] ieee80211_reserve_tid+0xef0/0x1198 [mac80211]
[   50.435435] ---[ end trace 7b3f86120d8b0c14 ]---

I am just building a chinese device with the firmware that i built. The device seems to work fine but this error seems to be in Dmesg.

The router works fine and does not have any noticeable issues but this points to an underlying issue which might cause trouble forward in time.